51㎡:采访李牧

李牧

Question:策展人唐昕、苏文祥

Question:我们已经很久没有有效的交流了，打招呼的时候比较多。你的《左手日记》还在记吗？到什么时候结束？

Li Mu:我的《左手日记》在去年六月份的时候停下来了。我坚持每天在左手上写下“日记”并拍照，持续了将近两年。其实这只是个自我的练习，培养一种观察和表达的习惯。最后的时候，我觉得厌倦了，就停下来了。

Q:你的《蓝色图书》在泰康空间的“51平方”项目展完之后，你还去看过那些孩子们吗？

LM:我去过一次上海未成年犯管教所，是想取回一些被扣押的录像资料，但没有见到那些参与我的活动的孩子们。我没有合适的理由再申请见他们，除非我再继续新的艺术项目。

Q:你的作品中那些关于“介入”或者说“参与”的想法，就是说在一个作品成立的基础上，需要倚赖观众、或者有未知因素来参与，最后导致作品一直变化着并有可能进入一个不可控的地步——这些，现在有什么变化吗？

LM:没有多少变化吧！我对于通过作品和外界沟通和交流还是抱有浓厚的兴趣。

Q:你最初对影像和影像装置是非常沉迷的，怎么会变化到现在的状况？

LM:仔细想一下，这种变化应该是随着我对艺术的认识的变化而产生的。
最初的那几年，我非常喜欢录像和录像装置，面对繁杂的艺术资料，我只看到我感兴趣的事物。但是这样的着迷只会使自己的创作走向一条更狭窄的路。2007年我在“刷新”展览上做了《长城的风》，这个装置作品使我感觉到创作方向的更多可能。记得当时的我对自己作品是极不自信的，那种感觉就像不会游泳的人扔掉了救生圈，步履蹒跚的瘸子扔掉了拐杖，忐忑、紧张，却还夹杂着一丝冒险的惊喜。
2008年在上海法租界的公寓里做的《公共知识》是我后来所有尝试的一个开端。当时，我从澳门的一个短期居留回来，在那里我我意识到自己的最日常的生活可以成为创作的主题。我问自己，我最想做什么，我有什么，我能做什么？于是，就有了把自己家里的书提供给观众阅读这样的想法。完成了这个作品，就很自然的有了《蓝色图书》、《礼物》、《陌生》……

Q:你一直很关注纪录性的影片，甚至自己也尝试过创作，它带给你怎样的影响？我们是被其中的真实震撼吗？

LM:我现在还是很喜欢看纪录片，但是对我的创作并没有多少影响。我只是喜欢，只是看。

Q:说一说《我的问题》这个作品。其实你已经有了答案对不对？当一个自我的设问，以外在的显著的形式展示出来，这个原先的私密就被刻意化和设计了……你在期待什么确定的答案出现呢？

LM:这几年，随着年龄的增长，我明显的感觉到了危机感，这表现在我有时候很焦虑，不间断的躁动。本来这种焦虑是一直都有的，隐藏着的，可去年的上半年很明显。我忽然觉得我应该正视这些问题，到底是什么导致我的焦虑？如果不能在心理上想明白这些问题，会影响我以后的艺术发展。于是，我梳理出了当时困扰我的六个问题。
我去了青海玉树就这些问题请教了拉布寺的一个高僧。高僧从佛教的角度的解答并没有给我多少帮助，但是那次高原上的旅行给了我难忘的体验。回到上海后，我就这些问题和艺术家徐坦做了很深入的交流，他从自身的角度谈了他是如何面对这些问题的，这次谈话对我的帮助很大。
之后，我带着这些问题参加了比丽安娜策划的“迁徙、异化和相互干扰的身份（）”展览。除了展示这些问题外，我把展览现场布置成一个交流和探讨的空间，我每天和观众、被我邀请来的人来交流这些问题。现在，已经积累了很多篇谈话的录音，还没有整理出来。
在实施作品的过程中，我意识到这些问题成为了我和外界交流的媒介，不同的人对问题的看法是非常不同的，而我，不是为了寻找答案，交流本身带给我的远比答案重要。所以，这个作品还在继续，我觉得合适的时候，我会停下来，把这些交流的结果整理出来，和大家分享。
至于在展览上的展示方法，我觉得那是当时我能做到的最好的方法了，除非我只是去做而不展示。

Q:你的一些作品涉及到的一些自我信息的“暴露”或者说“袒露”，是不是可以说是策略化的。

LM:只要张口说话就是在袒露信息。我除了这些信息可以“袒露”之外，再没有别的了。

Q:以我对你的以前作品的了解，那时候总是有一种“拙”和质朴的东西在里面（当然我们都不会永久地一成不变，我到北京这三年也有很多变化）。但是我现在仿佛感觉，你在有意识的往“灵巧”方面过渡，是不是这样？说说你的感受。

LM:如果你一定说在我的作品里看到一点灵巧的话，说明我的性格里除了大部分的笨拙，还真的有一点点灵巧被你窥见。
无论笨拙或者灵巧，我无法驾驭。我能做的只是呈现我自己。

Q:《朋友》这件作品是怎么回事？

LM:那是在M50的一个小画廊里的小型展览，我抱着参与的心态做的一个练习作品。我没有提供方案，在即将开幕的前两天，我就在画廊附近转悠，看到到处都是拆房子留下的建筑废墟，我就顺手捡一些石块装在包里，带回画廊。两天，捡了一百多块石头。我想把我所有的朋友的名字写在石块上。写了几块，觉得不好，就开始把我能记得住的一些日期写在上面：我和我的亲人的生日、我的结婚纪念日、爷爷奶奶去世的日期或者一些特别的日子，还有一些空着，就随便写了一些日期。最后，这些有日期的石头就散落在画廊的地上。
展览要结束了，我该通知画廊的工作人员，把那些石块作为垃圾扔掉好了。

Q:在09年立陶宛的旅行期间，你做了好几件作品，你一定有很多感触……我们的创作究竟需要来自新的环境的刺激，还是来自对生活敏感细致地挖掘？你的创作跟现实生活是怎样的关系?

LM:那年去立陶宛参加波罗的海三年展，是第一次出国，对一切都充满了好奇和新鲜。我们小组（舒服组合）5个人，在那里住了24天，就地创作。2个星期很快就过去了，该提交作品方案了，可我一点想法都没有。我们每天吃完晚饭后就开始讨论各自的方案，一轮又一轮，不断提出，不断被枪毙。那几天，做梦都在出方案。那时压力很大，不是来自别人，而是自己。最终，我实施了4个作品。回来后，朋友们给了我很多称赞，可是只有我自己知道，我把自己逼到什么程度后才做出那几件作品。
说了这么多，我想说什么呢？我们都说，生活就是艺术。可是我总觉得在现实生活和艺术之间隔着那么一层纸，需要捅破。而捅破这层纸，需要你的知识、智慧、机缘等一切条件。我在本性上非常懒惰（思维和身体），我做艺术的过程就是不断对抗懒惰的过程。这个过程是不可能太舒服的。
在生活中我是一个容易动感情的人，我就不断提醒自己不要掉进抒情和形式主义的陷阱，因为最终我要走的路，是在观念和想法上突破自我的束缚。只有这样，我才能在精神上获得自由。

Q:谈一谈你的故乡。你是徐州人，然后在苏州安家，但却生活在上海？哪一个才是你的……？

LM:我的老家是徐州丰县的一个村子。以前很穷，很落后。现在不一样了，到处都是家庭作坊式的木板加工厂，很多人富裕了。村前屋后都是作坊，大多土地都被占用，到处都是垃圾和隆隆的机器声。我开始不喜欢这个地方了。当然，导致我不喜欢这儿的更多的原因来自我和家人观念上的冲突，我努力协调这种冲突。
我的亲人都生活在那里，我还是要每年都会回去。
我现在的家在苏州，工作室在上海。离的很近，我可以经常回去。在上海总是有一种战斗的感觉，整个人绷得紧紧的，除了和朋友讨论艺术、做展览活动，其他确实没有多少好玩的。我每次回苏州，就放松下来了，吃吃喝喝玩玩。苏州好吃的、好玩的地方很多。
哪里是家？哪里都不是自己的家，我只是个过客而已，我也不希望我的心被拴在一个地方。

Q:《出售我的2019》的情况怎么样，卖出去了吗？你是基于何种因素来对自己的作品进行估价的呢？

LM:那是2009年的“艺术新经济”展览，我做了出售自己的未来的作品。结果，没有人买。我把我10年后一整年的作品定价30万元人民币，我认为这是一个很便宜且合适的价格，这来自对自己作品的自信。定价过低，会显得调侃；过高，没有人敢买。

Q:杜尚以后，一切都有可能成为艺术品，如何区别艺术品与日常物之间的界限，如果说艺术家的创作是一个自我寻找和认知的过程，那么他是在寻找点石成金的方法和技能吗？

LM:我想到被开过光的佛像，物理上和没有开过光的有什么区别啊？没有区别。一旦你知道开过光了，并且是得道高僧开的光，那这个佛像就有生命了。看来，艺术品和日常物品之间的区别不在物质上，而是在我的心里，来自我的对该事物的认知。
我自己的创作是一个自我寻找和认知并不断完善自我的过程，我把这条路看做是在都市里修行。我不觉得做艺术会有什么好方法或者技能，如果我感觉到了方法，我应该赶快扔掉。我知道，一旦有了方法或者技巧，就会陷入自己形成的规则和圈套。

Q:在上海，艺术生态肯定已经和前几年稍有不同了，说说你们的小组以及你们组织的活动。你从中得到了什么经验，与我们分享一下吧。

我和赵骏园、陶轶和徐喆成立了一个小组，名字叫“组织（COMPANY）”。他们三个都是在欧洲留学生活了一些年才回到上海的，他们有晒太阳、喝咖啡的习惯。那种放松的状态正是我所缺少的，我一直太紧张了。
“组织”成立后，我们做了“环城地铁里的声音表演”、“上海歌城的噪音卡拉OK”、“第一届国际斗核桃大赛”以及“在1933老场房里走动的声音”。现在我们正在着手展开向孩子们介绍当代艺术大师的工作，计划会有一套书和一些和孩子互动的活动。另外，还准备继续做“第二届斗核桃大赛”。
我和他们几个在一起合作很轻松，接触到很多关于声音和即兴音乐方面的知识。这在潜意识里影响我对待生活的心态，放松的面对每一件事物。我也渐渐体会到，只有不在乎结果，彻底放弃功利心，才能真的轻松起来。

Q:说说你目前的生活和工作的情况，我们还想更多的了解北京之外的其他城市艺术家的状态。

LM:我来到上海已经是第五个年头了，呆久了，多少觉的有些木。没有多少展览活动能让自己激动，只有很少的几个朋友可以交流。从去年开始，我把一些精力花在英文的学习上。我在申请一些国外的艺术驻留项目，我希望能把自己放在更广一些的舞台上，去学习，去创作。

Q:艺术家们在一起聊起创作时经常会说起一个词语：针对性，你怎么看？如果有，那么你的针对性是什么？

LM:我所有的创作都是针对我自己，我想。通过创作的过程，能治疗自己，完善自己，让我活的很好，我希望这样。

Q:你觉得上一代的或者说前辈艺术家能教给我们什么？你最看重什么？

LM:我很努力的从他们身上学习，也学到很多。比如，看黄永砯的作品，我认识到知识的重要性；看蔡国强的作品，我学到艺术家是需要想象力和原始的热情。
以前，我习惯于看到别人的缺点；现在，我让自己学习别人的优点，忽略别人的缺点。

Q:我们今天还能创造出什么吗？

LM:我不知道，试试看。

Q:如果用一些关键词来描述自己的创作，你觉得有哪些?

LM:我的作品？简单，朴素，笨拙，真诚，缺乏想象力。

Q:
2012就要到了，你相信未来吗？你觉得什么是未来，是一幅怎样的图景？

LM:我幻想着未来，我能很平静的生活，静的像一潭清澈的深水。

2011.2.28

李牧

An Interview Between curator Tang Xin, Su Wenxiang and Li Mu

Question: We haven’t communicated effectively with each other for a long time. We said hello to each other more. Are you still writing your Left-hand Diary? When will it end?

Li Mu: I stopped the Left-hand Diary last June. I kept writing a diary on my left hand and photographed it. I kept doing it for almost two years. This is actually a self-practice to cultivate a habit of observation and expression. In the end, I got bored, so I stopped.

Q: After your Blue Book being exhibited in 51m2 Project in Taikang Space,have you ever visited those children?

LM: I went to Shanghai Correctional Institution for Juvenile Offender once. I wanted to take back some video documents that had been kept there. I didn’t see the children who participated in my activity. I don’t have a suitable reason to apply for seeing them again, unless I want to start a new art project.

Q: The thoughts about “interference” and “participation” in your work needs to rely on the audience or needs unknown elements to participate.They might result in the consistent change of the work and may cause it to get into an uncontrollable status. Is there any change about all these now?

LM: Nothing much has changed. I still take great interest in communicating with the outside world through my work.

Q: You were very addicted to video and video installations at the beginning. What made you change?

LM: If I think carefully, this change appeared along with the change of my understanding of art. During the first several years, I liked video and video installations very much. In front of the complicated and overloaded art documents, I could only see the things that I liked. But obsession like this can only make your creation develop along a narrower path. In 2007 I made Wind of The Great Wall for the exhibition “Refresh”. This installation work made me feel the multiple possibilities for my creation. I remember I was really unconfident about my work. That feeling is like throwing the buoy when you don’t know how to swim or losing the walking stick when you are limping. You felt mentally disturbed, nervous and a surprisingly risky feeling as well. In 2008, Public Knowledge was made in an apartment of the French concession in Shanghai, which was the beginning of all my following attempts. At that time, I just came back from a short residency in Macau. There, I realized my daily life could be the theme of my creation. I asked myself what I wanted to do, what I had and what I could do. Therefore, I had the idea of providing my books for the audience to read. After finishing that work, Blue Book, Gift and Strangeness naturally showed up…

Q: You always pay close attention to documentary films. You also tried to film a documentary. How did they influence you? Are we shocked by the truthfulness in them?

LM: I still like watching documentary films, but they didn’t influence my creation much. I just like watching them.

Q: Let’s talk about My Question. In fact you already have an answer, right? It is a rhetorical question, which is demonstrated as an obvious exterior form. Then the original privacy is designed intentionally…What kind of definite answer are you expecting?

LM: These years, with my age older, I clearly feel a sense of crisis. This finds expression in my occasional anxiety and consistent turbulence.This anxiety has always been there, but it was hidden. However, during the first half of last year, it was quite obvious. I suddenly felt I should face these problems. What on earth caused my anxiety? If I couldn’t figure it out clearly, the development of my art creation would be influenced. Therefore, I concluded six questions that bothered me at that time.
I went to Yushu, Qinghai Province to ask for help from an eminent monk in the Rabu Temple. The monk answered my questions from the angle of Buddhism and it didn’t give me much help. But the travel on the highland gave me an unforgettable experience. After I went back to Shanghai, I changed my ideas about these questions with Xu Tan. He talked about how he faced these questions. That conversation helped me a lot. Afterwards, I participated in the exhibition “Moved, Mutated and Disturbed Identities” curated by Biljana with my questions. Except for showing these questions, I decorated the exhibition site into a space for communication and discussion. Every day I exchanged ideas about these questions with the audience and people invited by me. Now I have collected many records of those discussions, but I haven’t put them in order yet. During the process of making the work, I realized these questions had become the media through which I communicated with the outside world. Different people have very different viewpoints. As for me, I am not looking for an answer. The communication itself has brought more important things to me. Thus, this work is still going on. I will stop when I think it’s the right time. I will trim the results of the communications and share them with everybody. As for the demonstration way I used in the exhibition, I think it was the best way that I could find, unless I only wanted to do it but not to demonstrate it.

Q: Some of your works involve some “exposure” of your personal data.Can we say it’s strategic?

LM: Every time you speak, you are exposing your information. I don’t have other things to “expose” other than these data.

Q: Based on my understanding of your previous works, there was always something simple and unadorned in it (of course we won’t stay the same forever. I’ve changed a lot as well after I got to Beijing). But now I feel that you are transiting to “dexterity”. Am I right? Please tell me something about it.

LM: If you must say you see a little dexterity in my works, it shows that apart from the majority part of “plainness” in my personality, there is actually a little dexterity in it, too. No matter plainness or dexterity, I cannot control them. All I can do is to present myself.

Q: What about the work Friends?

LM: It was a small exhibition in a small gallery in M50. I just wanted to be involved, so I made a work that was more like an exercise to me. I didn’t provide a plan. Two days before the opening, I was wandering around the gallery and saw there were relics of buildings everywhere.I picked up some rocks at my convenience, put them in my bag and took them to the gallery. During the two days, I took more than one hundred rocks. I wanted to write all my friends’ names on the rocks. I wrote a few names and thought it was not very good. Then I started to write some dates that I could remember: my birthday and family members’ birthdays, my wedding anniversary, the dates that my grand-parents passed away and other special dates. There were still some rocks left empty, so I wrote some dates randomly. In the end, rocks with dates dispersed on the floor of the gallery.When the exhibition was coming to an end, I informed the staff of the gallery to throw them away.

Q: During your travel in Lithuania, you made several works. You must have had a lot of thoughts and feelings…Does our creation need to come from the stimulation of a new environment or the careful excavation of life? What is the relationship between your creation and real life?

LM: That year I went to Lithuania to participate in The Baltic Sea Triennial. That was the first time I went abroad and I was curious about everything. We had five members in our group (Comfortable Group) and we lived there for 24 days and created our work there. Two weeks passed quickly. When it was time to submit the project plan, I still didn’t have a clue. Every night after dinner we started to discuss about our respective plan, one round after another. The plans were consistently discussed and then denied. During those days, I was thinking about the project even in my dream. I felt a lot of pressure and it didn’t come from others, but from myself. In the end, I made four works. After I came back, my friends complimented my works, but only I knew how difficult it was to make those works. I’ve talked a lot. What do I want to say exactly? We all say that life is art, but I always feel there is a layer of paper between life and art and you need to puncture it. But in order to do that, it requests your knowledge, wisdom, opportunity and all the other conditions. I am very lazy (both physically and mentally). My process of creating art is a consistent resistance to laziness. This process can’t be verycomfortable.
I am an emotional person in real life. I keep reminding myself not to fall in the lyrical and formalistic trap, because the final road I choose is to break away from my own restraint in concept and thought. Only by this means, can I gain spiritual freedom

Q: Let’s talk about your hometown. You are from Xuzhou and you settle down in Suzhou, but you live in Shanghai? Which one is your…?

LM: My hometown is a village in Feng County in Xuzhou. It used to be poor and underdeveloped. Now it’s different. Family-workshop style board processors are everywhere. Many people have become rich. Most of the land is occupied. Trash and the sound of the machines fill the whole space. I started to dislike this place. Of course, the main reason why I don’t like it there is that I have conflicts with my family in the aspect of concept. I am trying my best to coordinate this
relationship. All my relatives live there. I go back there every year.
My home is in Suzhou and my studio is in Shanghai, which is very close to Suzhou, so I can go back often. There’s always a feeling of battle in Shanghai. I feel stiff all the time. There’s nothing fun except for discussing art with friends and participating in exhibitions. I become relaxed every time I go back to Suzhou. I eat, drink and play
there. There are lots of places to play there.
Where is my real home? Nowhere. I’m just a passer-by and I also don’t want my heart to be chained in one place.

Q: What about your work My 2019 for Sale? Did you sell it? How did you set the price for your work?

LM: That was for the exhibition “New Art Economy” in 2009. I made a work for sale. In the end, no one bought it. I set a price of 300,000 RMB for all my works created after 2010. I think it’s a cheap and appropriate price. This comes from the confidence about my works. If I set it too low, it will look ironic; if too high, no one dares to buy it.

Q: After Duchamp, anything can be art. How to differentiate artworks and daily goods? If we say the process of art creation is a process of selfrecognition, then was he searching for the method and skill to turn a stone into gold?

LM: It reminds me of a consecrated Buddha statue. There is no physical difference between it and statue without consecration. Once you know it has been consecrated by an eminent monk, you’ll think this statue has life. There is no material difference between artworks and daily good. The difference is in my heart, in my recognition of that thing.
My creation is a process of self-searching and self-perfection. I regard this road as disciplining in the city. I don’t think there are good methods or skills for making art. If I feel the methods, I will throw them away because I know once I have the methods or skills, I will be stuck in my own rules and traps.

Q: In Shanghai, art ecology must have been a little different than previous years. Please tell me something about your group and the activities you organize. What experience have you gained from it? Please share it with us.

LM: I organized a group with Zhao Junyuan, Tao Yi and Xu Zhe. The name of the group is “Company”. The three of them all studied in Europe for several years and then came back to Shanghai. They have the habits of basking in the sun and drinking coffee. Their relaxed status is what I’ve been missing. I am too tense. After the foundation of “Company”, we made “The Voice Performance in City Subway”, “The Noise Karaoke in Shanghai Music Town”, “The First International Walnut Battle” and “The Sound of Walking in the Old 1933 Workshop”. Now we are starting to introduce contemporary art masters to children. There will be a set of books and some interactive activities with children. Besides, we are preparing to do “The Second International Walnut Battle”.I feel relaxed working with them and I touched upon much knowledge about sound and extemporaneous music. This has unconsciously influenced my attitude towards life and made me face everything in a relaxed mood. I also gradually understand that you can only be relaxed when you don’t care about the result and give up the desire to win completely.

Q: Let’s talk about your current life and work. We also want to learn more about the artists living in other cities.

LM: It’s been my fifth year in Shanghai. It’s been too long and I feel a little numb. There are not many exhibitions that can make me excited.
There are only a few friends to communicate with. Since last year,I have spent some time on English study. I am applying for some international residency projects. I hope to put myself on a bigger stage to learn and create.

Q: When talking about creation, the artists always mention a word:pertinence. What do you think? What is your pertinence?

LM: All my creations aim at myself, I think. Through the process of creation, you can cure or, improve yourself and live better. I hope so.

Q: What have the artists of last generation taught us? What do you think highly of?

LM: I try very hard to learn from them and I’ve already learned a lot. For example, when I see Huang Yongping’s work, I realize the importance of knowledge; when I see Cai Guoqiang’s work, I learn that artists need imagination and primitive passion.
I was used to seeing the flaws of other people before. Now I want to learn the merits of other people and ignore their flaws.

Q: Can we still create something today?

LM: I don’t know. I’ll try.

Q: Describe your creation using a few key words. What do you think they are?

LM: My creation? Simple, plain, clumsy, sincere, lack of imagination.

Q: The year of 2012 is coming. Do you believe in the future？What do you think the future is like?

LM: I am expecting the future. I can live peacefully, like deep and tranquil water.

March 2011

陈卫

LM:我想到被开过光的佛像，物理上和没有开过光的有什么区别啊？没有区别。一旦你知道开过光了，并且是得道高僧开的光，那这个佛像就有生命了。看来，艺术品和日常物品之间的区别不在物质上，而是在我的心里，来自我的对该事物的认知。
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Q:艺术家们在一起聊起创作时经常会说起一个词语：针对性，你怎么看？如果有，那么你的针对性是什么？

LM:我所有的创作都是针对我自己，我想。
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LM:以前，我习惯于看到别人的缺点；现在，我让自己学习别人的优点，忽略别人的缺点。

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Q:如果用一些关键词来描述自己的创作，你觉得有哪些?

LM:我的作品？简单，朴素，笨拙，真诚，缺乏想象力。